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2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

The list and its future

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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Fat Side on Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:34 pm

MrWoollie wrote:
Hamburger wrote:
Crazy Dazz wrote:Media say Vardy likely to get a 2 year deal. :roll:
Why?
I like Vardy, and if we had to keep one I'm personally glad it was him.
And if we're going to go with two ruckmen next year, then having an experienced backup makes some sense. Especially as Williams and Jamieson continue to develop.
But surely it's a year by year proposition at this point?


Risk Assessment.
1. we have one of the best (if not the best) stoppage ruckman/clearance specialists in the competition
2. But our best ruckman has a history of injury. many of them major ones which have forced him out of the game for long periods/seasons.
3. Vardy has performed in a grand final for us....kicked an amazing goal and then was involved in the winning passage of play and thoroughly deserves his medal.
4. We have let Tom Hickey move closer to his family.
5. Oscar Allen, a wonderful talent on a par with James Hird in potential has been pinch hitting in the ruck....but he is undersized for that role.
6. our two developing rucks Williams and Jamiseon are likely to need some years to develop.
7. And the most important point. Lots of clubs are looking for developed ruckmen and trade in ruckmen is commonplace with everyone looking to lure big men from their first, second, third or fourth club.
Conclusion. Offer Vardy whatever he wants to provide a security backup to our ruck division and make certain you outbid what others may offer.


I have to disagree on Vardy.
He provides no backup as either a ruck (where he loses over 2/3 of contests) or a forward (where he can't take a mark or kick a goal).

In his time at Geelong he was a promising forward who could help out in the ruck. He was good for a goal a game, if you could get him on the paddock. Over 5 years they got 24 games out of him. We nearly matched that in 2017 with 22 games.
2018 was his best year as far as performance goes, but he still only managed 10 games.
2019 was 11 games of very low quality and 2020 was down the order to both Hickey and Williams.
Over his career he's gone from a goal a game forward threat who rucks, to a competitive ruck who does a bit of forward time, to a poor backup ruck who is absolutely a liability forward. Unbalances an already too tall forward line and does nothing. In his 11 games in 2019 he took zero marks i50 and kicked zero goals, zero behinds. And lost more ruck contests than he won.
And come 2021, even that'll be two years in the younger past.

As to your points.
1. Yes we do, but that doesn't impact Vardy's worth or value.
2. True, and this does make us think about backup. But Williams is already ahead, and a mature WAFL/SANFL/NEAFL ruck would be better backup. Using a higher risk, more injury prone ruck as backup to your injury prone champion is actually bad risk management.
3. So what. That was the high point. It was over 2 years ago and he's not going to get even close to that again.
4 and 5. True.
6. Jamieson, yes. Williams no. He's ready for games and has well overtaken Vardy already. In fact, we need to get games into him in 2021. If we don't, other clubs will come sniffing and he'll be gone. And he looks very promising.
7. They do, but Vardy created no interest in 2020. None. Zero. No offers. So just plain wrong.
And the conclusion. Wrong on all levels. You don't offer injury prone, marginal at best players what they want. He's no security that couldn't be better covered by a static style WAFL etc. ruck. And what others may offer? He was uncontracted and no-one offered even a future 5th rounder for him. That's hardly other clubs knocking down the door.

If he was never injured he would have ended up as a 10 year, 200 gamer. But he wasn't (never injured) and never will be (a 200 gamer).
I think it's time to accept we got the best possible out of him and there's not enough left to justify another contract.
But if we do, one year at a time please. Two is just silly.


The prospects of Vardy playing next year are very slim, but with the departure of Hickey, resigning him was a no-brainer. Williams is certainly ahead of him and Jamieson isn't ready. If NN goes down, without Vardy, we are left with Williams and Jamieson. Leading into a finals campaign, it would be a disaster. Vardy is experienced and will only be called upon to give NN a rest or in the event of injury. They have signed him for one year, so we can revisit it this time next year.

With 37 on the senior list, unless we move Venables, it looks like we are only taking one player in the ND and we now have three rookies. That gives us three rookie selections.

CD mentioned that Rioli has essentially been delisted, but I can't verify this anywhere.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Pinion King on Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:37 pm

Vardy, Ah Chee, Hutchings and Jones have all signed new 1 year deals.

Hutchings, Ah Chee and Jones are all listed as rookies.

Edwards has been upgraded to senior list.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Crazy Dazz on Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:48 pm

Pinion King wrote:Vardy, Ah Chee, Hutchings and Jones have all signed new 1 year deals.

Hutchings, Ah Chee and Jones are all listed as rookies.

Edwards has been upgraded to senior list.

and I had such High hopes for this period.

Unfortunately it is increasingly apparent that the Eagles have become just another mindless bureaucracy.
No leadership, nobody prepared to make tough decisions, and too focussed on making safe choices. Catering to the mediocre and the clueless.
Sure, I get it, most fans and members are rubes. One glance at Facebook will tell you that.
And most people are illogical. They will cheer the retention of Hutchings, and give not a second's thought to the kid who's AFL dream he just stole.
I shouldn't be surprised, but I keep hoping for better.

I can't understand why people can't see this?
Somewhere out there, probably in Perth, some hopeful kids are still training, not yet knowing that their AFL dream just got crushed, because WCE made the safe choice and re-signed a bunch of cloggers.

If Hutchings proved one thing this year, its that he was done last year.
Hutchings is a success story.
After he didn't make it the first time around, he worked his arse off in the WAFL, got a second chance, and even though he was always far too slow for AFL, he worked his arse off and carved out a role. His reward was 100 games and a Premiership.
But every great story comes to an end. Even the greatest career ends.

Keeping cloggers is just plain gutless.
It's always easier to not hire someone than it is to sack someone.
It's easier to make a non-decision than it is to put your dick on the line and make a call on some 17yr old nobody has ever heard of.
It's the safe decision, because every time you draft a rookie, there's a 95% chance he fails.
Just ignore that there is ZERO chance of the cloggers getting any better.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Crazy Dazz on Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:14 pm

Fat Side wrote:The prospects of Vardy playing next year are very slim, but with the departure of Hickey, resigning him was a no-brainer. Williams is certainly ahead of him and Jamieson isn't ready. If NN goes down, without Vardy, we are left with Williams and Jamieson. Leading into a finals campaign, it would be a disaster. Vardy is experienced and will only be called upon to give NN a rest or in the event of injury. They have signed him for one year, so we can revisit it this time next year..

I wouldn't say it's a no-brainer. Possibly the right call, but not a simple one.

Part of the issue is our obsession with playing half a team of forwards, and a bunch of tall towards. Plus our ongoing refusal to develop youth.
Much will depend on what we do with Kennedy, how we manage NN, whether Brander gets a shot, etc, etc.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Pinion King on Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:50 am

So, what are we going to use to fill those empty spots on the list if we delist them all?

They are called depth on our rookie list, something that if 2021 season is anything like 2020 we may need it.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Crazy Dazz on Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:59 am

Fat Side wrote:CD mentioned that Rioli has essentially been delisted, but I can't verify this anywhere.

Not quite. He's out of contract, but not delisted.

He was contracted tll 2022, but they mutually agreed to chop that so he came out of contract at the end of this year.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Fat Side on Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:16 am

Pinion King wrote:So, what are we going to use to fill those empty spots on the list if we delist them all?

They are called depth on our rookie list, something that if 2021 season is anything like 2020 we may need it.


Yes, of course the problem for us is our draft hand and salary cap space. Our earliest pick is in the 60s, then 80s so we have put our eggs in the rookie basket. Every club needs low paid players like Hutchings, Jones and Ah Chee, it's the only way we can afford the Shueys, Gaffs, Yeos and Darlings.

We will draft up to three rookies (if we only use one pick in the ND). Our picks will be around 11, 29 and 47 - very speculative. We will probably leave a spot free for the SSP and get some players training with us over the Summer.

We have clearly set our sights on 2021 draft.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Crazy Dazz on Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:39 pm

Fat Side wrote:
Pinion King wrote:So, what are we going to use to fill those empty spots on the list if we delist them all?

They are called depth on our rookie list, something that if 2021 season is anything like 2020 we may need it.

Yes, of course the problem for us is our draft hand and salary cap space. Our earliest pick is in the 60s, then 80s so we have put our eggs in the rookie basket. Every club needs low paid players like Hutchings, Jones and Ah Chee, it's the only way we can afford the Shueys, Gaffs, Yeos and Darlings.

That's all irrelevant.
Nobody is suggesting there are instant stars out there for the picking
What we’re talking about is the choice between keeping a clogger (who ether is never getting any better or is past their use-by) or rolling the dice on a late rookie pick and/or a delisted roughie.

But it gets worse because the biggest problem here is the players they have chosen to keep
lMHO Ah Chee is a useless Spud. He’s been a spud since the first day he stepped onto the field with Port. Nothing has changed with us and all his repeated games have shown us is that he should have been axed at the first opportunity. Of all the players delisted l would have kept ANY of them instead of BAC. Why Simmo loves hm, God only knows. Perhaps he has a shin-boner?
and yes that s purely my opinion. Obviously those at the club actually responsible disagree.

Hutchings is done and what is scaring the crap out of me is that l believe Ainsworth is without a contract. If they have kept Hutchings just so they can delist Ainsworth l am fair dinkum going to hit somebody.

For the record Jones has potential upside assuming his body s up to it. Given he’s young showed a bit of endeavour and we never got to see much l don’t mind giving him another crack.
Last edited by Crazy Dazz on Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby CouchPotato on Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:00 pm

Premiership teams need depth.

We believe we are still in a premiership window for one more year, so we are maintaining that depth.

No matter what happens in the 2021 season, I suspect Kennedy & Hurn to retire and our window probably closes for a period of time while some transition in our midfield, forward line and back line needs to happen.

To give up that depth this year when we kept Kennedy & Hurn would be trying to be half pregnant - your either rebuilding or your contending. To give up Hutch, Ah Chee and hope for something similar (but younger) at pick 60 would just be foolish.

I suspect we'll take 5 or 6 picks next draft (which will be half full of this year's stars anyway) and have a fairly large turnover.

I'm ok with this as a strategy by WCE.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Fat Side on Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:17 pm

Crazy Dazz wrote:
Fat Side wrote:
Pinion King wrote:So, what are we going to use to fill those empty spots on the list if we delist them all?

They are called depth on our rookie list, something that if 2021 season is anything like 2020 we may need it.

Yes, of course the problem for us is our draft hand and salary cap space. Our earliest pick is in the 60s, then 80s so we have put our eggs in the rookie basket. Every club needs low paid players like Hutchings, Jones and Ah Chee, it's the only way we can afford the Shueys, Gaffs, Yeos and Darlings.


Hutchings is done and what is scaring the crap out of me is that believe Ainsworth is without a contract. If they have kept Hutchings just so they can delist Ainsworth l am far dinkum going to hit somebody.


Ainsworth has been offered a contract.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Pinion King on Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:06 pm

CouchPotato wrote:Premiership teams need depth.

We believe we are still in a premiership window for one more year, so we are maintaining that depth.

No matter what happens in the 2021 season, I suspect Kennedy & Hurn to retire and our window probably closes for a period of time while some transition in our midfield, forward line and back line needs to happen.

To give up that depth this year when we kept Kennedy & Hurn would be trying to be half pregnant - your either rebuilding or your contending. To give up Hutch, Ah Chee and hope for something similar (but younger) at pick 60 would just be foolish.

I suspect we'll take 5 or 6 picks next draft (which will be half full of this year's stars anyway) and have a fairly large turnover.

I'm ok with this as a strategy by WCE.

If you look at next year.

Hurn, JK, Vardy, Hutchings, Ah Chee, Jones all out of contract, Venables most likely gone, Rioli if he has the 4 year ban will be gone, plus normal list turn over.

We are banking draft picks to fill all those spots.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby MrWoollie on Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:17 pm

Pinion King wrote:So, what are we going to use to fill those empty spots on the list if we delist them all?

They are called depth on our rookie list, something that if 2021 season is anything like 2020 we may need it.

Go to the draft and pick up...
a mature WAFL/SANFL/NEAFL ruck as ruck only 3rd ruck option to NN and Williams and even 4th option to Allen for a game or two if injuries are minor.
pick up a couple of mature WAFL players who have worked hard and will give a second chance every go. Like Hutchings a few years ago.
pick up a couple of promising young guys that others missed in the compromised draft. Might get a star.

All of these would offer more than a bunch of list cloggers who are either shot (Hutchings, Vardy), or not up to AFL standard.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Fat Side on Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 pm

Despite what some on here are saying, I don't believe that Hutchings and Vardy are shot. Both were injured this year. Let's wait and see how they go in 2021.

If people believe that we would be better served going to the draft or the WAFL, fair enough. I don't disagree, but I stop short at suggesting two of our premiership players are shot.

Had Hickey stayed, Vardy would have gone and at least we know what we are going to get with him both of them. They are depth, sure and simple.

Clearly the strategy is to hold fast next year and ready ourselves for a big draft in 2021.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Crazy Dazz on Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:48 pm

Ah yes the old “Spuds as Depth” argument.

“Depth” doesn’t explain Hutchy for three reasons:
1) His body appears to be past it and he is now injury prone. Chances are he wouldn’t be available when required or would be severely underdone.
2) He fills the Tagger role a spot now covered by Redden/Ainsworth and Nelson if needed.
3) You play a Tagger because you have a reasonable player who’s good for nothing else. If he’s not available then you simply play your next best mid.

Depth is indeed good and necessary. But there comes a point at which you’re better off using young developing players.
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Re: 2020 : Trade -:- Delist -:- Retire

Postby Fat Side on Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:29 pm

Crazy Dazz wrote:Ah yes the old “Spuds as Depth” argument.

“Depth” doesn’t explain Hutchy for three reasons:
1) His body appears to be past it and he is now injury prone. Chances are he wouldn’t be available when required or would be severely underdone.
2) He fills the Tagger role a spot now covered by Redden/Ainsworth and Nelson if needed.
3) You play a Tagger because you have a reasonable player who’s good for nothing else. If he’s not available then you simply play your next best mid.

Depth is indeed good and necessary. But there comes a point at which you’re better off using young developing players.


Ah Yes, the old 'I know better than everyone else'. The 'AFL is constantly plotting against us' paranoia. Get a grip!

Referring to our premiership players as 'spuds' is offensive...very offensive. They brought you joy and now they're spuds? You have delved to a new low.
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