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Fuck You VFL

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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby Fat Side on Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:18 pm

Crazy Dazz wrote:
Fat Side wrote:Why is it that teams like Richmond (3 GFs in 4 years), Geelong (4 GFs in 5 years), Hawthorn (4 GFs in 4 years) and Brisbane (4 GFs in 4 years) have the capacity to continue pushing into grand finals and win premierships while they have momentum? These clubs stay at the top of the ladder for a prolonged period and win multiple premierships before re-setting and preparing for another crack. The WCE on the other hand...

Ya know I was asking myself the same thing last night... Good Post

We were literally cheated out of flag in 05, we were gutted by injury and Cousins in 07, but were still close, then we had the heart & soul ripped out of our club and fell to pieces. But for that, it would have been a exceptional block.

But this time round. The way we fell apart in the 15 GF was embarrassing, but our failure to regroup in16 & 17 was more so. What has me gobsmacked is that from 2018 we have added NN, Gaff, Shepp, and Kelly, and gone backwards.

I don't really like Richmond's "brand" of footy, but what they have done throughout this season is adapt. Wherever they had to play and against whomever, they have adapted. We didn't. We played badly in Queensland and did nothing to change it. We lost the EF because the filth came with strategies to defeat our strengths, and we were too predictable.

One of the downsides of the current club leadership is that we're just a bit too warm & fuzzy. It's hard to strike a balance, but I think at times we need to be more aggressive and ruthless in our dealings.
Lets be honest, "conspiracy theory" or not, the AFL never does us any favours, nor does anyone else, so why do we care so much what they think? The Eagles of the preceding decade were branded as "arrogant" and many in the AFL world cheered when we fell apart. Do we really think that has changed? And even if it has, so what?
Look at Geelong, they're probably going to add Crouch and Cameron to their team, for ZERO cost. They don't do that by playing fair or playing nice.
With Kelly, we should either have taken the first deal or screwed them to the wall last year. We should have got guys like Swallow and Coniglio as Free Agents, and we should have Cripps already lined up for next year. These things don't happen overnight, clubs work on these players and their families for years to make these deals line up. And yes, other clubs hate them for it, and yet they keep winning flags.


Good points there. I don't really rate Swallow and Coniglio hasn't reached his potential after around 150 games. Cripps is never leaving Carlton. Zac Langdon is coming apparently and I'm not sure why. Nothing against the bloke, but I don't think he's what we need. We need to get plenty of draft picks and get fresh young players onto the list. Are we prepared to make bold trade decisions? I hope so, but not confident.

I don't think there is any coincidence that, in 2018 we debuted Ryan, Rioli, Waterman, Allen, Brander, Ainsworth and Petruccelle, and won the flag. An injection of youth adds energy and puts more senior players on notice. As an aside, we really need Rioli back and playing.
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby Crazy Dazz on Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:52 pm

Fat Side wrote:Good points there. I don't really rate Swallow and Coniglio hasn't reached his potential after around 150 games. Cripps is never leaving Carlton. Zac Langdon is coming apparently and I'm not sure why. Nothing against the bloke, but I don't think he's what we need. We need to get plenty of draft picks and get fresh young players onto the list. Are we prepared to make bold trade decisions? I hope so, but not confident.
Fair points about those players, although I'd take any of them ahead of Ainsworth, especially with Shuey getting older.
But it doesn't even have to be WA boys.

Our view of the trade system seems to be that its something we only do when we have no choice, and we leave it up to players to decide they want to come home, and then make stupendously generous trade deals.
I certainly don't want us to be one of those clubs that pays over the odds for wouldbe "saviours" (although thats exactly what we did with Kelly) but there are successful clubs out there that trade aggressively to get good talent into the team.

The Free-Agency system is diabolically unfair.
But lets be honest, you know the surest way to make the AFL to fix it would be for the Eagles to start cranking and bringing a bunch of WA talent home for no cost.
Currently there are two kinds of clubs, those that unashamedly game the system and use Free-Agency to their advantage, and those that get pillaged and have to be content with whatever scraps the AFL tosses us. Currently we're in the latter group.

Fat Side wrote:I don't think there is any coincidence that, in 2018 we debuted Ryan, Rioli, Waterman, Allen, Brander, Ainsworth and Petruccelle, and won the flag. An injection of youth adds energy and puts more senior players on notice. As an aside, we really need Rioli back and playing.
We need a better balance.
Remains to be seen whether Longmuir's approach works at Freo, and I don't necessarily like the idea of teammates seeing each other as adversaries, but there needs to be more pressure to perform. Every games, and every quarter. And ffs we need to get ruthless with the cloggers.
It's why I'm always in two minds over guys like Langdon, Narkle, Clark, etc. Some guys can be late-bloomers (although more especially talls) and some may be genuinely lacking opportunity, or have been held back by injuries. But there can be a fine-line between unearthing that overlooked gem, and filling the list with another clogger.
Last edited by Crazy Dazz on Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby MrWoollie on Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:16 pm

The Crazy One wrote:I don't really like Richmond's "brand" of footy, but what they have done throughout this season is adapt. Wherever they had to play and against whomever, they have adapted. We didn't. We played badly in Queensland and did nothing to change it. We lost the EF because the filth came with strategies to defeat our strengths, and we were too predictable.
[/quote]
It's ugly but effective. Perfect for finals and bad conditions as well.

But Port was playing an identical style. Knock the ball out, move it forward at any opportunity, and never take possession if under any pressure. Just tap it on, knock it on, toe poke it forward, soccer off the ground, knock it out of the pack, if you're not going to mark, bring it to ground to advantage and so on. I've never seen two teams make so many ruck style taps to advantage in general play before.

We need to do more of this type of stuff, especially forward of centre.

And gee, I'd love to have in my team, but doesn't Dusty get a free ride from the umpires. Anyone else fends off to the face or neck it's a free, for Dusty it's 'great fend off'. And he does so much jumper grabbing and surreptitious little grabs of the ankle when on the ground.
And never gets pinged.

And Lynch is a dirty prick and Riewoldt should be playing Othello at the Old Vic instead of AFL.

Edit - And what a bad lot left. Hard to get excited with any of them. And took away the wrong name.
Last edited by MrWoollie on Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby Crazy Dazz on Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:38 pm

MrWoollie wrote:
Crazy Dazz wrote:I don't really like Richmond's "brand" of footy, but what they have done throughout this season is adapt. Wherever they had to play and against whomever, they have adapted. We didn't. We played badly in Queensland and did nothing to change it. We lost the EF because the filth came with strategies to defeat our strengths, and we were too predictable.

It's ugly but effective. Perfect for finals and bad conditions as well.

But Port was playing an identical style. Knock the ball out, move it forward at any opportunity, and never take possession if under any pressure. Just tap it on, knock it on, toe poke it forward, soccer off the ground, knock it out of the pack, if you're not going to mark, bring it to ground to advantage and so on. I've never seen two teams make so many ruck style taps to advantage in general play before.

We need to do more of this type of stuff, especially forward of centre.

And gee, I'd love to have in my team, but doesn't Dusty get a free ride from the umpires. Anyone else fends off to the face or neck it's a free, for Dusty it's 'great fend off'. And he does so much jumper grabbing and surreptitious little grabs of the ankle when on the ground.
And never gets pinged.

And Lynch is a dirty prick and Riewoldt should be playing Othello at the Old Vic instead of AFL.

Edit - And what a bad lot left. Hard to get excited with any of them.

At the risk of being labelled paranoid, it's one area where we can never compete with the favoured Melbourne teams. We simply can't have players like Dustbin and Lynch, because they would never let an Eagle get away with it.
Let's be honest, if my daughter announced her new boyfriend was picking her up, and I saw Dustbin coming down the path, I'd be headed for the gun-safe. Hes a grade-A dickhead, but to the Prictorian commentators he's "what a character" because he also happens to be an exceptional footballer. And yes, gets away with dirty plays that few others would.

On the other subject, I think at times we are our own worst enemy when the ball is in our forward 50. We overcrowd it ourselves, leaving the middle of the ground underpopulated, and yet we are extremely poor at locking it in. It takes a while, but inevitably the opposition are able to run it out, and then go rampaging through our empty midfield. I reckon that when the ball is on the ground, anybody not skilled in crumbing, should pull out and zone up the perimeter. It's where we get burnt by naming players like Ah Chee and Petch as forwards, and they contribute nothing.
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby MrWoollie on Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:56 am

Crazy Dazz wrote:On the other subject, I think at times we are our own worst enemy when the ball is in our forward 50. We overcrowd it ourselves, leaving the middle of the ground underpopulated, and yet we are extremely poor at locking it in. It takes a while, but inevitably the opposition are able to run it out, and then go rampaging through our empty midfield. I reckon that when the ball is on the ground, anybody not skilled in crumbing, should pull out and zone up the perimeter. It's where we get burnt by naming players like Ah Chee and Petch as forwards, and they contribute nothing.

We truly are our own worst enemas. Petch should be on the opposite wing to Gaff where his pace is an advantage. Starting inside 50 wastes that pace.
Darling and JK need to sometimes admit they cannot take the mark and do the knock to advantage thing.
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby Fat Side on Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:40 am

Crazy Dazz wrote:
Fat Side wrote:Good points there. I don't really rate Swallow and Coniglio hasn't reached his potential after around 150 games. Cripps is never leaving Carlton. Zac Langdon is coming apparently and I'm not sure why. Nothing against the bloke, but I don't think he's what we need. We need to get plenty of draft picks and get fresh young players onto the list. Are we prepared to make bold trade decisions? I hope so, but not confident.
Fair points about those players, although I'd take any of them ahead of Ainsworth, especially with Shuey getting older.
But it doesn't even have to be WA boys.


Of course you would. Anybody would, but comparing a $150k player with $600+k players isn't useful. Even if they're available, we don't have the salary cap space or draft picks to get them.
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby Fat Side on Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:42 am

MrWoollie wrote:
Fat Side wrote:I don't really like Richmond's "brand" of footy, but what they have done throughout this season is adapt. Wherever they had to play and against whomever, they have adapted. We didn't. We played badly in Queensland and did nothing to change it. We lost the EF because the filth came with strategies to defeat our strengths, and we were too predictable.

It's ugly but effective. Perfect for finals and bad conditions as well.

But Port was playing an identical style. Knock the ball out, move it forward at any opportunity, and never take possession if under any pressure. Just tap it on, knock it on, toe poke it forward, soccer off the ground, knock it out of the pack, if you're not going to mark, bring it to ground to advantage and so on. I've never seen two teams make so many ruck style taps to advantage in general play before.

We need to do more of this type of stuff, especially forward of centre.

And gee, I'd love to have in my team, but doesn't Dusty get a free ride from the umpires. Anyone else fends off to the face or neck it's a free, for Dusty it's 'great fend off'. And he does so much jumper grabbing and surreptitious little grabs of the ankle when on the ground.
And never gets pinged.

And Lynch is a dirty prick and Riewoldt should be playing Othello at the Old Vic instead of AFL.

Edit - And what a bad lot left. Hard to get excited with any of them.[/quote]

That's a Dazz quote, not mine.
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby Fat Side on Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:51 am

Crazy Dazz wrote:The Free-Agency system is diabolically unfair.
But lets be honest, you know the surest way to make the AFL to fix it would be for the Eagles to start cranking and bringing a bunch of WA talent home for no cost.
Currently there are two kinds of clubs, those that unashamedly game the system and use Free-Agency to their advantage, and those that get pillaged and have to be content with whatever scraps the AFL tosses us. Currently we're in the latter group.


Free agency was devised to free up player movement and even up the competition by providing options for weaker teams to attract experienced players to their clubs. The reality is that FA has boosted the top teams. The best players available under FA have largely gone to the Richmonds, Hawthorns, Geelongs, Essendons rather than the North Melbournes, Melbournes and Fremantles.

FA has allowed players to move freely to clubs playing finals rather than remaining at struggling clubs. Tom Lynch, Frawley etc have achieved their dreams other than languish at the GC or Melbourne.

I generally don't have an issue with the FA system other than the remaining 17 clubs pay the price for the player movement. I think the FA system should operate like the FS or Academy players whereby the club taking the player gets a discount, but has to pay in draft pick(s) not the rest of the competition shift down the draft order to pay for FA movement. This will provide the struggling clubs with more opportunities to get the best FA players as they hold the best draft hand.

It is unfair for a club like Richmond to win a premiership and recruit a player like Lynch while still holding pick 18 (and the rest of their picks)
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby Fat Side on Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:51 am

Crazy Dazz wrote:The Free-Agency system is diabolically unfair.
But lets be honest, you know the surest way to make the AFL to fix it would be for the Eagles to start cranking and bringing a bunch of WA talent home for no cost.
Currently there are two kinds of clubs, those that unashamedly game the system and use Free-Agency to their advantage, and those that get pillaged and have to be content with whatever scraps the AFL tosses us. Currently we're in the latter group.


Free agency was devised to free up player movement and even up the competition by providing options for weaker teams to attract experienced players to their clubs. The reality is that FA has boosted the top teams. The best players available under FA have largely gone to the Richmonds, Hawthorns, Geelongs, Essendons rather than the North Melbournes, Melbournes and Fremantles.

FA has allowed players to move freely to clubs playing finals rather than remaining at struggling clubs. Tom Lynch, Frawley etc have achieved their dreams other than languish at the GC or Melbourne.

I generally don't have an issue with the FA system other than the remaining 17 clubs pay the price for the player movement. I think the FA system should operate like the FS or Academy players whereby the club taking the player gets a discount, but has to pay in draft pick(s) not the rest of the competition shift down the draft order to pay for FA movement. This will provide the struggling clubs with more opportunities to get the best FA players as they hold the best draft hand.

It is unfair for a club like Richmond to win a premiership and recruit a player like Lynch while still holding pick 18 (and the rest of their picks)
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby Crazy Dazz on Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:55 pm

Fat Side wrote:
Crazy Dazz wrote:
Fat Side wrote:Good points there. I don't really rate Swallow and Coniglio hasn't reached his potential after around 150 games. Cripps is never leaving Carlton. Zac Langdon is coming apparently and I'm not sure why. Nothing against the bloke, but I don't think he's what we need. We need to get plenty of draft picks and get fresh young players onto the list. Are we prepared to make bold trade decisions? I hope so, but not confident.
Fair points about those players, although I'd take any of them ahead of Ainsworth, especially with Shuey getting older.
But it doesn't even have to be WA boys.


Of course you would. Anybody would, but comparing a $150k player with $600+k players isn't useful. Even if they're available, we don't have the salary cap space or draft picks to get them.

I'm talking about doing the work (as other clubs do) to get such players as free agents. So instead of giving up a 1st round pick to get Redden, get a better player, and pay nothing.

As for salary cap, we can't discuss specifics because we just don't know, but simple fact is that we need to do whatever is necessary to match clubs like Geelong and Richmond.
We actually have an advantage over Melbourne clubs, because players can make far more money doing endorsements and media work here.

And let me be blunt.
There is no question of legality, in fact the salary cap itself is arguably unlawful.
What we have is a question of obeying the rules, and as in everything, the rules are whatever the AFL allows.
So whatever the AFL is allowing those other clubs to do, we need to do it too, just smarter.

Fat Side wrote:
Crazy Dazz wrote:The Free-Agency system is diabolically unfair.
But lets be honest, you know the surest way to make the AFL to fix it would be for the Eagles to start cranking and bringing a bunch of WA talent home for no cost.
Currently there are two kinds of clubs, those that unashamedly game the system and use Free-Agency to their advantage, and those that get pillaged and have to be content with whatever scraps the AFL tosses us. Currently we're in the latter group.


Free agency was devised to free up player movement and even up the competition by providing options for weaker teams to attract experienced players to their clubs. The reality is that FA has boosted the top teams. The best players available under FA have largely gone to the Richmonds, Hawthorns, Geelongs, Essendons rather than the North Melbournes, Melbournes and Fremantles.

FA has allowed players to move freely to clubs playing finals rather than remaining at struggling clubs. Tom Lynch, Frawley etc have achieved their dreams other than languish at the GC or Melbourne.

I generally don't have an issue with the FA system other than the remaining 17 clubs pay the price for the player movement. I think the FA system should operate like the FS or Academy players whereby the club taking the player gets a discount, but has to pay in draft pick(s) not the rest of the competition shift down the draft order to pay for FA movement. This will provide the struggling clubs with more opportunities to get the best FA players as they hold the best draft hand.

It is unfair for a club like Richmond to win a premiership and recruit a player like Lynch while still holding pick 18 (and the rest of their picks)
Yep
And now you have Geelong, who have made and may well win a GF, and they are already looking to add the two best FA's in the country, and it will cost them absolutely nothing.
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Re: Fuck You VFL

Postby MelbourneBased on Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:35 pm

West Coast rolled the dice and paid over the odds for Kelly. Thinking he would make the team whole. But what it could not fix was we were 1-2 key small "true" forwards down all year

Therefore, teams learnt early, that when the ball was in a stoppage or loose in our forward line, then they only had to counter Ryan and the mid fielders (if they got there in time). The rest of the half forwards and forward pockets could be left to pick daisies and then get lost in the fast transition.

There was that game, where Nic Nat palmed to Kennedy who snapped a goal . I thought that was brilliant, but hindsight maybe showed our true lack of options.

Now we are in a predicament, for next draft, we have no cards to play as we have no selections in top 2 rounds and the following year we have to use our first round selection. Therefore the list we have..... is the list we have for the next few years. (if teams have to reduce their total caps next year, I can't see West Coast having any salary cap to bring in any disgruntled $700k+ players).

We need to find a couple of players who can provide magic and creativity. At this stage, there is only Young Cameron, the rest are too slow or defensive forwards. Petch looks good running onto the ball in open spaces, but once he has got it, it is line ball on him not turning it over.

But it is a tall order for Cameron as we are missing a crafty Le Cras that could provide balance. I don't think you can pick up one of these players and they slot in. Just like Kelly did not slot in totally this year.
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