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Re-signings and Contracts

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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Mr Q on Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:40 pm

Generally I agree that this year is with it to keep the premiership window open, but fuck it, it makes me hate bloody Geelong.

They are the worst club to trade with full stop, who firmly believe in a mantra that they must screw over the other club in any trade. No win-win or doing the right thing, just that they must win.

Hopefully the rest of the comp is watching and karma will hit Kardinia Park one day
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Crazy Dazz on Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:22 pm

Mr Q wrote:Generally I agree that this year is with it to keep the premiership window open,

This year WAS the year no doubt.

After if we were just going to drop our trousers and bend over, why didn't we do it last year? At least then they offered us some vasso.

And here's another thing:
Masto was unfairly maligned for most of his career, because he never lived up to the onus attached to that #3 pick we got for Juddas.
Do we really want to saddle Kelly with this?
He'll be the Messiah we screwed the club to get. That puts a lot of pressure on him.

Have a look at Freo's history of doing the same thing. It never works out.

Kelly's an exceptionally good player, but this expectation that he guarantees us a flag is childishly naive at best, and at worst deluded.

Now keep in mind that after tanking their arse off for years, Carlton were well position to afford Judd. They didn't even give up their 1st round pick, only the priority pick. And it still never worked out for them.

Whilst I LOVE the idea of adding Kelly to our midfield, he doesn't even come close to a guaranteed GF. Too many other things need to go right.

The other thing to remember is that in a closed system, all values are relative and should be determined by supply and demand.
That deal for Kelly values him at over 3,600 points.
In a pre Free-Agency trade we got only 2800 (plus Kennedy) for Judd.

Ignoring our previous trade we started this draft with about 2,000 points. If you assume we're going to do better next year, then we're basically blowing almost two entire drafts on one player.
If we were in GC's draft position and looking to rebuild quickly, then with over 8,000 points to play with, 4,600 for Kelly might be a good deal.
Last edited by Crazy Dazz on Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Pinion King on Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:37 pm

Crazy Dazz wrote:
Mr Q wrote:Generally I agree that this year is with it to keep the premiership window open,

This year WAS the year no doubt.

After if we were just going to drop our trousers and bend over, why didn't we do it last year? At least then they offered us some vasso.

And here's another thing:
Masto was unfairly maligned for most of his career, because he never lived up to the onus attached to that #3 pick we got for Juddas.
Do we really want to saddle Kelly with this?
He'll be the Messiah we screwed the club to get. That puts a lot of pressure on him.

Have a look at Freo's history of doing the same thing. It never works out.

Kelly's an exceptionally good player, but this expectation that he guarantees us a flag is childishly naive at best, and at worst deluded.

Now keep in mind that after tanking their arse off for years, Carlton were well position to afford Judd. They didn't even give up their 1st round pick, only the priority pick. And it still never worked out for them.

Whilst I LOVE the idea of adding Kelly to our midfield, he doesn't even come close to a guaranteed GF. Too many other things need to go right.

So you're saying it's time to start our rebuild and get ready for another hit at it in 5-6 years time. Not go hard for the next 2-3 years and get the best out of our stars before they leave us?

Just like when it comes to drafting a kid, many things have to go right.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Mead on Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:56 pm

Kelly for picks is a great deal for us.

20 plus touch, full time midfielders who average a goal a game are a very rare and valuable commodity. We have exactly zero players who fit that profile. You remove a Redden or a Masten from our regular 22 and replace them with Kelly and we are immediately much better.

The comparison with carlton picking up Judd couldn't be more wrong .Carlton recruited Judd when they were rubbish and rebuilding. He made them marginally less rubbish but was never enough to take them into full contender mode- in that sense he was a total waste because he simply wasn't what they needed at that point in their cycle.

Conversely recruiting Kelly for picks when we are already a seriously good side with the core of our list in the mid to late 20s makes so much sense. He's not going to.be asked to carry the team, all he has to do is slot in, play good football and in doing so ease some of the pressure on Yeo/Shuey/Gaff. More midfield goals, and more games where Yeo or Shuey get off the leash because the tagger has to go to Kelly is a winning formula.

What we are giving up will obviously make development harder in the long term, but picks in to 10-20 range are by no means a sure thing- if you do the math over the last decade, a pick in that range probably works out to a 10% chance of an outright star, a~50% of a good solid 200 game player, and a 30-40% chance of a crab. Kelly has already demonstrated he's in the 10%.

There are no guarantees in football but the time to trade picks for established players is now- it is exactly the right move at this point in our team's cycle given most of our core side are still at or near their peaks as players right now. By every possible measure it makes sense.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Peter_Melesso_Fanclub on Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:11 am

Crazy Dazz wrote:After if we were just going to drop our trousers and bend over, why didn't we do it last year?

This.

We just allowed the Cats to have their cake and eat it too, and got a worse deal for ourselves in the process. And I don't hate them for it, I respect them for it. That's superb negotiating by them, and a weak effort by us. If it all goes through as expected then they have done nothing wrong whatsoever. Holding a player to their contract is 100% fair enough on their part, and they'll also have respected his trade wishes.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Hamburger on Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:26 am

Peter_Melesso_Fanclub wrote:
Crazy Dazz wrote:After if we were just going to drop our trousers and bend over, why didn't we do it last year?

This.

We just allowed the Cats to have their cake and eat it too, and got a worse deal for ourselves in the process. And I don't hate them for it, I respect them for it. That's superb negotiating by them, and a weak effort by us. If it all goes through as expected then they have done nothing wrong whatsoever. Holding a player to their contract is 100% fair enough on their part, and they'll also have respected his trade wishes.


We paid a high price, but clearly think it was worth it. Time will tell. As for not doing a deal last year? As far as I can recall we did not have a round one pick in 2018. First pick was 28. second was 35. We did not have enough to trade for Kelly. Also waiting another year meant we got to see if he could back up his first stellar season....and he has.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Peter_Melesso_Fanclub on Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:25 am

Hamburger wrote:
Peter_Melesso_Fanclub wrote:
Crazy Dazz wrote:After if we were just going to drop our trousers and bend over, why didn't we do it last year?

This.

We just allowed the Cats to have their cake and eat it too, and got a worse deal for ourselves in the process. And I don't hate them for it, I respect them for it. That's superb negotiating by them, and a weak effort by us. If it all goes through as expected then they have done nothing wrong whatsoever. Holding a player to their contract is 100% fair enough on their part, and they'll also have respected his trade wishes.


We paid a high price, but clearly think it was worth it. Time will tell. As for not doing a deal last year? As far as I can recall we did not have a round one pick in 2018. First pick was 28. second was 35. We did not have enough to trade for Kelly. Also waiting another year meant we got to see if he could back up his first stellar season....and he has.

His stock went up, and the price we paid went up.
Which is fine. That is fair. What I mostly don't understand is the weird narrative around here of Geelong being evil just because they drive a hard bargain.
Bottom line, we paid a high price in return for a high quality player. I'm happy it's over, and I'm happy we got him. Plenty to look forward to in 2020 now.

What this whole thing also demonstrates very clearly is that good scouting/talent evaluation is invaluable.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Crazy Dazz on Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:49 pm

The annoying thing, and what I don't understand, is why we stuck to guns last year, when there was no fall back position.

But this year, when he was out of contract and had other options, we caved. And that's after missing our shot this year.
Talk about shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

That's just really poor management. My opinion of Vozzo has dropped another few notches.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Mr Q on Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:36 pm

Peter_Melesso_Fanclub wrote:Which is fine. That is fair. What I mostly don't understand is the weird narrative around here of Geelong being evil just because they drive a hard bargain.


They like to win every single trade. And win it big.

They like to hold other clubs over barrels. And players who might want to leave (unless they're on the outer at the Cats already).

They play nasty at the trade table, in a way a lot of other clubs really don't. Including the Eagles historically.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby MelbourneBased on Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:38 pm

Crazy Dazz wrote:The annoying thing, and what I don't understand, is why we stuck to guns last year, when there was no fall back position.

But this year, when he was out of contract and had other options, we caved. And that's after missing our shot this year.
Talk about shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

That's just really poor management. My opinion of Vozzo has dropped another few notches.


Did West Coast lose the double chance because we only kicked a point in the last quarter against Collingwood . Or did we lose the it because we didn't turn up for the Hawthorn Match.

What would have happened if the Willie RIoli saga didn't eventuate. Would we have won the premiership?
Gee if Nic Nat was fit all season….

If my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt. :lol:

What I believe is ... the team is not as good as the 1991-1994 team. How do I know….. well I don’t

Getting him last year, may or may not have won the premiership.... or may have resulted in long term damage from complacency.

But, one thing I know is that I enjoyed the 2018 premiership, I have got my excuses for 2019.

I am looking forward excitingly to 2020, because
The players are hurting, hopefully like Richmond after 2017. Likewise mirroring Richmond we have a star recruit,.... surely when you consider what Nic Nat and Shepherd are missing...we get the ultimate outcome in 2020.

But... I also like the story within the story

I love the story about Tim Kelly and how he grew up supporting West Coast. I also like that he and his partner have made decisions for the betterment of their family

I like the fact that the team did not fire on all 6 cyclinders, Vardy, Venerable, Duggan, Cole and Barassi were not good this year (injury or otherwise).

I am glad Masten is gone…. as I hated watching him and Gaff together in the team. As link men they stopped the flow

I am looking forward to Cameron and Pettucelli with another preseason. Likewise wondering which of the 6 players who have not played a game ....survive the upcoming cull and deliver for West Coast,

Will West Coast repeat their indigenous player effort they had against Melbourne for multiple games next year. In fact Ryan, Cameron, Kelly, Ah Chee, Jetta and Watson may create a record.

Who will West Coast pick with 52 and,64 and why. Or will they want to trade future picks for more players in this draft and why?

I don't really care about not going back to back. All I know is that we are in a better place than Adelaide.

As Big Kev said… I am excited
Last edited by MelbourneBased on Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Fat Side on Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:45 am

Mr Q wrote:
Peter_Melesso_Fanclub wrote:Which is fine. That is fair. What I mostly don't understand is the weird narrative around here of Geelong being evil just because they drive a hard bargain.


They like to win every single trade. And win it big.

They like to hold other clubs over barrels. And players who might want to leave (unless they're on the outer at the Cats already).

They play nasty at the trade table, in a way a lot of other clubs really don't. Including the Eagles historically.


Yeah. Geelong like to win and we act fairly. That’s okay.

It’s not every day that a player of Kelly’s ilk nominates our club to be traded to. When we look at our list, it is strong and has depth. If there is any weakness in our list it is probably the midfield depth of talent. JK scratching out another 12 months may be seen as a weakness but we have emerging players that can fill that void.

Kelly immediately makes us a better team and we did the trade without losing some emerging talent like Brander or Oscar. With TK in the side and significant improvement left in our emerging key position talent, we should be right for a couple of years. I have a feeling we haven’t finished with the trade period yet where we may get into the draft earlier.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby farmer joe on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:09 am

MelbourneBased wrote:As Big Kev said… I am excited

I couldn't have said it better. I have been on cloud 9 since the Kelly announcement. A fit NN, Yeo in his prime, Shuey at his best, Kelly with a point to prove....man, that is the stuff dreams are made of. It is only a few short years ago that the best midfielder we could find was Plodder Priddis. Excellent work by our list management team.

I cannot believe that I am looking forward to my membership renewal arriving. Life is good. :)
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby penrith eagle on Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:30 pm

Looks like the shockers are going to get Blake Acres for Hill

Its a shame always thought he was a chance for us and could of gone well

oh well cannot get them all :?
Time to start the rebuild !!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby Mead on Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:30 am

farmer joe wrote:
MelbourneBased wrote:As Big Kev said… I am excited

I couldn't have said it better. I have been on cloud 9 since the Kelly announcement. A fit NN, Yeo in his prime, Shuey at his best, Kelly with a point to prove....man, that is the stuff dreams are made of. It is only a few short years ago that the best midfielder we could find was Plodder Priddis. Excellent work by our list management team.

I cannot believe that I am looking forward to my membership renewal arriving. Life is good. :)


It is exciting. They don't quite have the runs on the board, but on paper NN/Yeo/Shuey/Kelly/Gaff/Sheed/Hutchings\Redden compares to the 2006 midfield, and it has a far better set of bookends to kick to. It's not just about Kelly's output, it's about Yeo and Shuey spending much less time copping a hard tag because that player will often go to Kelly.

Thanks to a few key players aging and the idiocy of Rioli I think we've missed the opportunity to put our absolute best 22 of this era on the park, but it's still going to be such an exciting lead up to the year. There's going to be a lot of players with a spring in their step as and a sense that a flag is a genuine possibility again.
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Re: Re-signings and Contracts

Postby MelbourneBased on Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:50 pm

Listening to Mr Vozzo https://www.westcoasteagles.com.au/news ... 2019....we could be using both picks.
But…. With only 1 of 3 senior players confirmed leaving the club, and we trade to get down to pick 46, a decision must be imminent on one player to either delisted or being pushed down to the rookie list.

I think Brander or Mutimer.... is that player, I think Brayshaw will be held on for longer for political reasons..
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