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NDIS: What is it for?

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NDIS: What is it for?

Postby Eliot Mess on Fri May 03, 2013 1:47 am

What problem is the new NDIS the solution for? What does it do? People seem to be talking about it like it is well-deserved income supplementation.

Insurance means cover for "an event or outcome that happened". So, all the claimants will need to be assessed to see if they do have that outcome....you know, to qualify. Even back to birth injury? That is Millions of people.

How can such an assessment process even be paid for? It would need an organisation the size of Centrelink. Maybe they'll just expand Centrelink.

Or will it be on a claims-made basis henceforth, which means only NEW events or cases are included.

People are forgetting also that mental impairment is difficult to disprove. Basically, if you say you are nuts or stressed or depressed, you are IN.

Mental illness has a prevalence of at least 20% on its own. We actually rely on the mild sufferers soldiering on because they can, not saying: "Me too please!" and lying down.

Such a social program needs workers taxes to fund it. That is see-saw that needs the weight on the workers' side...Each worker less is one dependent more. You can't keep shifting the weight onto the non-working side.

And all of this assumes that no-one will be gaming the System.

Now, consider the behaviour of the existing service provider for Federal employees with mental claims:

The Comcare scheme provides compensation to injured employees of federal government agencies, the ACT government and some private companies, but a review found the rate of claims for psychological injuries had increased by as much as 30 per cent in the past three years.

Mr Shorten said the government would require Comcare to be more vigilant when assessing mental injury claims to protect taxpayers.

It would ensure a mental injury was considered to arise out of work only if the underlying perception had ''a reasonable basis''.

This is in line with a review by Peter Hanks QC, who suggested changing the law to negate the effect of a Federal Court judgment that allowed an employee's psychological reaction to be linked to work ''regardless of whether the perception was reasonable or itself reflected reality''.

''It is an unfair burden on employers to make them liable to pay compensation for a psychological injury that is caused by an employee's fantasising rather than by any aspect of employment,'' Mr Hanks wrote in his report.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/stepp ... z2S9o9onns

So, back to : what is it for?
Last edited by Eliot Mess on Sun May 05, 2013 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was ist das NDIS

Postby Hamburger on Fri May 03, 2013 6:33 am

Eliot Mess wrote:What problem is the new NDIS the solution for? What does it do? People seem to be talking about it like it is well-deserved income supplementation.

Insurance means cover for "an event or outcome that happened". So, all the claimants will need to be assessed to see if they do have that outcome....you know, to qualify. Even back to birth injury? That is Millions of people.



So, back to : what is it for?


some answers here: http://yoursay.ndis.gov.au/draft-NDIS-rules

Reading through it, it seems there is a genuine effort to provide support for families where a member becomes incapacitated and then are left wondering who will look after their family member when all other members have passed away.....I have friends in this situation and it's been a major stress for years now. That level of stress can start right at the birth of a child who requires a high level of support throughout life. We have long ago moved away from the old days of leaving such babies, children or adults in the woods (rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view) and so that commits a family to a life long commitment to care of their loved one.....at this time there is little financial support for these people, and a key element of the scheme is that each applicant must have a plan for how their support will provide for needs in the short and long term. I think it is basically about ensuring all those people who are wondering how their loved one will survive when they themselves pass away....will have some piece of mind.

Reading through the rules it seems they have worked hard to make it difficult to game, particularly around mental illness claims for access....but of course it's going to be run by a bureaucracy and so can be corrupted.
But that is already true of every other safety net we have extended to the vulnerable and unfortunate. Those schemes are also corrupted by some but most of the people supported by those schemes genuinely need help...at least for a time.
I have lived in a society where there were no such safety nets and would very much prefer we avoid that option here.
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Re: Was ist das NDIS

Postby Eliot Mess on Fri May 03, 2013 1:50 pm

It sounds a lot clearer the way you put it. The case definition is so extreme they would already be known, so the assessment issue is not so bad.

I'd definitely back that. Thanks for the link.

BTW I just saw a French movie called 'Amour' on an issue parallel to this. It was bit a grim, but a 5-star film.
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Re: NDIS: What is it for?

Postby Crazy Dazz on Mon May 06, 2013 2:44 am

Actually Elliott you make some good points.
It’s “Disability Support” pure and simple.

Disabled people have problems with Centrelink, as do aged pensioners, the unemployed, families, etc. So rather than fix the problems, the governments (typical Labour) response is “More Bureaucrats.”
And as usual, it is mostly just a pile of codswallop; more hollow promises.

My brother is an institutionalized quadriplegic, so I know a thing or two about disabilities. Let’s face it, his quality of life sucks, but he makes the best of it. For reasons I have never figured out, caring for him (if you can call it that) is a bloody expensive business. Considering he lives in the equivalent of a run-down 2-star motel room, with precious little onsite care, and the worst food imaginable, I cannot grasp how it costs $60k+ a year.

In the past, both my other brother and I have looked at the possibility of him living with us, but the haphazard approach to this by the government makes this difficult. Maybe the NDISA will fix this, but if so it will be the first time in history that adding more bureaucracy has fixed anything.

As for “gaming” the system, that will always be a problem with anyone who views it as a soft alternative. Not sure how you can do away with that, I think it’s just part of the cost. The government’s usual policy of making life difficult for EVERYONE just makes it harder on those with real disabilities. My brother also suffered minor head injury, and is often heavily medicated with pain-killers and anti-spasmodics, so he has a memory like a sieve and is easily confused on some things. So OF COURSE he finds it difficult to keep appointments with Centrelink, or to keep track of what they have told him.

The problem with trying to weed out those exaggerating their mental illness is that evaluation relies on testimony, which may not be easy for some, so they risk turning away genuine cases. I have battled my mental problems for over 20 years, and on most days I do ok. By and large I hold down well-paid jobs, generally make a decent fist of life because that is what I need to do, and I have learnt to live with the problems (with the help of powerful medications.) But to therefore conclude that I was nolonger ill would be a grave mistake.

It actually not that different with some physical disabilities. The level of control that a quad has can vary substantially, for no medically apparent reason. My brother can do most things with his arms, he can eat and drink, and operate a joystick, even manages ok with a computer. Others can propel themselves in a wheelchair, and some can even walk with crutches and splints. But yet others can manage none of that. Trying to diagnose and categorise levels of ability is extremely difficult, and in many ways counterproductive.
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Re: NDIS: What is it for?

Postby Tagger24 on Sat May 25, 2013 8:16 pm

The name is a bit of a misnomer. It really isn't insurance and it is more than *just* Disability Support. People with disabilities can and do already receive a pension-type disability payment through Centrelink.

The issue is that people with disabilities have needs that are a) often very expensive and b) well beyond the what a disability support pension can afford.

The current situation is that each state has its' own process by which individuals apply for and receive funding for individual needs. Not sure what it is like in other states but the conditions in WA through Disability Services Commision is f*cking awful. The actual organisation do their best given the circumstances but there is always a lack of funding and the issue is that funding is really only given on a severly-needed basis, not a "living a decent quality of life" basis.

So the NDIS covers a few bases. It creates a national funding pool, or at least is underpinned by the federal government, so the are more funds available. It puts attaining funding into one process, rather than the individual ones. Finally, the thing that makes it more than a disability pension is that the funding is individualised. Essentially people are able to go to whoever is managing the scheme with a list of necessities and are able to get a payment plan in order to receive those particular services.

Personally, I think the NDIS is brilliant and a very important piece of our social safety net. But I guess I'm biased; I have a sister with a severe physical and intellectual disability and my mum has been working for an organisation for 20-odd years that has been campaigning for a scheme similar to the NDIS.
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Re: NDIS: What is it for?

Postby Crazy Dazz on Sat May 25, 2013 9:02 pm

The problem remains that it is essentially horseshit grandstanding by the government.
The problem begins when people campaigning for a better “something” get hooked on a concept or phrase, so everybody starts clamouring for a “widget.”
So when the government announces they are going to waste even more of our money doing nothing in the name of “widget” simple souls believe all their Christmases have come at once.

Just like Medi-scare, the NDIS will actually be counter-productive. It has taken 30 years for the majority of Australians to wake-up to the fact that Medifraud is a crock of shit, and that if you can afford Private Health insurance you should have it.
Same applies to disability Insurance. It is THE most important insurance you can have, but how many of you do?
If you’re young or single, and you die, well nobody will be too badly off. But become TPI and your family will spent the rest of your miserable life in poverty.

My biggest gripe, is that the government will happily spend a small fortune accommodating my brother in an institution, but makes it extremely difficult if we wanted to have him live with us. He has a lot of ongoing medical needs, which would make it difficult, but there are many others at the centre who could be independently housed if the government was more flexible.
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Re: NDIS: What is it for?

Postby Eliot Mess on Sat May 25, 2013 10:35 pm

Crazy Dazz wrote:The problem remains that it is essentially horseshit grandstanding by the government.
The problem begins when people campaigning for a better “something” get hooked on a concept or phrase, so everybody starts clamouring for a “widget.”
So when the government announces they are going to waste even more of our money doing nothing in the name of “widget” simple souls believe all their Christmases have come at once.

Just like Medi-scare, the NDIS will actually be counter-productive. It has taken 30 years for the majority of Australians to wake-up to the fact that Medifraud is a crock of shit, and that if you can afford Private Health insurance you should have it.
Same applies to disability Insurance. It is THE most important insurance you can have, but how many of you do?
If you’re young or single, and you die, well nobody will be too badly off. But become TPI and your family will spent the rest of your miserable life in poverty.

My biggest gripe, is that the government will happily spend a small fortune accommodating my brother in an institution, but makes it extremely difficult if we wanted to have him live with us. He has a lot of ongoing medical needs, which would make it difficult, but there are many others at the centre who could be independently housed if the government was more flexible.


This is confusing, You seem to have shifted positions by the end.

My main concern is that an Industry will arise to slurp up the funding...and who pays who? What is a reasonable amount of services?
Typically, the sense of appropriate values gets distorted when something is "just there on tap".

Fake sillyish scenario:
"I'm a quadriplegic since a smash 8 years ago. I LOVE my coin collection, people are always giving them to me after their trips, so I need those all cleaned to keep them gleaming...there are 2,170 coins but it's all I've got to give me a little happiness. It takes the lady about 3 hours to do five hundred or so, so I have to wait a month to get them all the way I want them."

3 hours a week @ $26 per hour for cleaning: $312/month;
$3744 per year (underestimate as collection keeps getting larger)
$37,440 over 10 years (large underestimate as collection keeps getting larger)
Why not?
What is reasonable?
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Re: NDIS: What is it for?

Postby Crazy Dazz on Sun May 26, 2013 2:18 am

Well here’s another think that shits me off. My brother is a quad, and there are other quads worse off than him, and if you add mentally disabled (not mentally ill, but head-inured etc) that’s a whole extra bundle of crap.
He can’t get in and out of bed, or a car, etc, or have a wash, or take a piss without help. And you do not want to hear what is required for him to take a dump.
He’s on a cocktail of drugs, and he’s at constant risk of such things as pressure sores, UTIs, low blood pressure, etc. He lives in the equivalent of a motel room and is fed execrable slop. It should be better, but like everything in healthcare it costs the government a small fortune, and to be honest I don’t blame the govt.
BUT so much government time and money is taken up with whiners and wankers, people who would be considered “able bodied” in many countries, who just bitch and moan and expect the government to hand everything to them on a plate. My brother CAN’T live independently, but somebody who is comparatively lucky will be able to hit the government up for a fully kitted out Homeswest apartment, and all sorts of various other odds and sods.

The simple problem is that EVERYTHING the government touches turns to SHIT.

Transport has always been a problem, and relied upon either getting your own transport, or organisations having vans etc. This STARTED to improve when a few people got equipped vans and had them registered as Private Taxis. That looked too much like it might work, so the government stepped in and fucked the system up completely.
Put simply, they can now only operate as part of the taxi fleet, so you have a system that now not only costs the government a small fortune, it allows crooks to fraudulently rip the government off for millions, and still manages to deliver an absolutely shit service that nobody is happy with.

As I might have mentioned, the worst problem with the government is that they see bureaucracy as the solution to everything. They think that requiring more forms, and more interviews, and more doctors’ appointments will weed out the malingerers and fraudsters. I mean FMD talk about the lunatics running the asylum.
So WHO do they reckon is going to be better placed to wade their way through the quagmire of bureaucracy?
A perfectly capable bludger who understand the system, knows all the right words and tricks, and has all the time in the world to attend interviews, see doctors, etc?
Or a bloke who can’t write, can barely remember what day of the week it is, is sometimes bed-ridden for weeks, and for whom a doctor’s appointment can be a logistical nightmare?

My BIL’s ex-wife was a former Nurses Aid, and because of where she’d worked she picked up on a lot of the benefits that were around. She got a disability pension, priority Homeswest access, 30 hours a week home help, a grant to help her buy a new car, a new computer, and probably other stuff, all because she convinced a doctor that she was too depressed to work.
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Re: NDIS: What is it for?

Postby Eliot Mess on Sun May 26, 2013 1:08 pm

Community Nurses would be the best bet to assess, but I would give them admin backup to achieve what's needed. So they don't get drowned in the Govt's paperwork and sluggishnes. (see: DFAT aims for quick service)
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